RWBY & RT General Discussion Thread (V1)
- Thread starter Zam
- Start date
Ruby, let's not forget we saw cracks in Ruby's mask back near the end of Volume 4 before Nuck showed up, and it was JAUNE who helped her keep it together.
As for that second thing, let's say it's V3 again, but this time instead of breaking apart like they did at Beacon they manage to keep their heads up.
We saw them as early as the first episode too, but yeah, people just seem to ignore it cos subtly is bad unless they want it but it only takes the form they planned it too.
Sounds reasonable, this time they aren't being split up as they were then & know what's going on.
Also, the System. Change it.
just had a thought
people to this day say that Dark's reaction to Salem's Army (The Great Dusting) was a disproportionate punishment.
however since Salem intended to raise another army (before she heard there was "no one else") I think in the end Dark actually just hit the skip button.
imagine if he had not nuked humanity Salem undoubtedly would of raised another army and probably would of kept doing so, so instead of slogging through that rinse and repeat Dark basically went "Nope. Not fucking dealin with this bitch. No toys for you." Dusted humanity, left, and slammed the door on his way out by breaking the moon.
people to this day say that Dark's reaction to Salem's Army (The Great Dusting) was a disproportionate punishment.
however since Salem intended to raise another army (before she heard there was "no one else") I think in the end Dark actually just hit the skip button.
imagine if he had not nuked humanity Salem undoubtedly would of raised another army and probably would of kept doing so, so instead of slogging through that rinse and repeat Dark basically went "Nope. Not fucking dealin with this bitch. No toys for you." Dusted humanity, left, and slammed the door on his way out by breaking the moon.
... You do know that doesn't justify genocide right?
Even ignoring that the gods have shown themselves to not be very smart & lacking in omniscience so there's no way he knew that.
What's more, a much easier solution would have just been killing Salem or locking her up somewhere, or just straight up announcing "Hey attacking us on this woman's orders ends badly!"
Murdering every civilian, child and new born babe who can pose no threat, let alone everyone who also had literally nothing to do with it and also would have posed absolutely no threat based on the chance they might try something was still wrong and utterly abhorrent and evil as far as I'm concerned.
ᛚᛟᚲᛁ ᚱᚢᛚᛖᛋ ᚨᚾᛞ ᚦᛟᚱ ᛞᚱᛟᛟᛚᛊ
Well-known member
I think we should all take a moment to bow down and worship Neptune's OC sister. She is literally a goddess you know. :3
Glorious XD
She looks so cool!!!!
I feel like she and Yang would get on well.
Also.
Cinematic parallels:
ᛚᛟᚲᛁ ᚱᚢᛚᛖᛋ ᚨᚾᛞ ᚦᛟᚱ ᛞᚱᛟᛟᛚᛊ
Well-known member
Percy Jackson already did that. Except there it was fucking bullshit because 1) Percy is the demigod of the OCEAN, not water in general. 2) The tears in question were apparently made of poison instead of water. The power creep in that series got really dumb.so her water control is the water of tears?
Alternatively:
Seriously though her Semblance sounds pretty powerful. A great debuff power, like Tasha's Hideous Laughter or Otto's Irresistible Dance.
Or for a RWBY example
Opal's vertigo inducing Semblance.
Great post.
This kind of style of redemption, IE realizing one was not only toxic but cannot justify their actions and resolving to do better without a focus on (as one video I saw put it) joining the friend group, or as the post noted, seeking forgiveness is something I'd love to see RWBY tackle. Especially if some forgave and others didn't.
For example I can see RWBY forgiving Emerald, or some of them at least, (especially Blake) but much less for JNR and if handled right both would be seen as valid.
Matrix Dragon
Well-known member
ᛚᛟᚲᛁ ᚱᚢᛚᛖᛋ ᚨᚾᛞ ᚦᛟᚱ ᛞᚱᛟᛟᛚᛊ
Well-known member
Some "RWBY: The Grimm Campaign" previews from the official Twitter page:
Also the schedule for RTX At Home, which is coming up soon:
Apparently there is an app for making and sharing fanart for the event.
And speaking of fanart here is some gorgeous Nora artwork by Louise Stonehill which I felt like sharing:
Also the schedule for RTX At Home, which is coming up soon:
Apparently there is an app for making and sharing fanart for the event.
And speaking of fanart here is some gorgeous Nora artwork by Louise Stonehill which I felt like sharing:
Incredible XD
Oooh very cool, thanks!
That is lovely!
Idle thought on Lie Ren.
A lot of viewers seemed to think that Ren's character arc began and ended with the Nuck Grimm, but I feel that can't be further from the truth, and I'm gonna go into why here:
So, we all know Ren, he mostly played a secondary and or supporting role in the early volumes a JNPR never got that involved in the plot. Most of what we saw was a almost supernaturally chill and slightly awkward but supportive guy who was very skilled but may have lacked the stamina of some of his allies.
Due to never getting closely tied to the plot, we didn't see much beneath the surface because he was mostly dealing with school drama, but then the Fall of Beacon happened and we see him so wounded he can't even stand, stubbornly trying to go save Pyrrha & Jaune anyway, this I feel is a pretty good sign that Ren is not nearly as chill beneath the surface.
Following that, V4 is what gives Ren and to a lesser extent Nora, real time to shine.
We learn about his home and is destruction at the hands of a Grimm.
We learn about his fathers last words of wisdom demanding he take action.
We see that his Semblance let's him hide & suppress Aura & emotions, which puts his supernatural chill into question.
Then when he encounters the Nuck, he unsurprisingly looses his cool entirely, racing in headlong against a Grimm well suited for fighting his style and almost getting himself killed. Its only Nora dragging him back to a near state of calm that stops this and he particpates in a plan that allows him the chance to effectively execute the Grimm that ruined his life.
Now one can talk about the morality of the act both in general and in regards to Grimm until they are blue in the face but I am more interested in his words. Specifically his speech about taking vengeance for the people killed, he notes his parents and then, himself. Or in other words, some part of Ren sees himself as having been effectively killed by this Grimm.
So even ignoring that while vengeance may be cathartic its still no replacement for therapy, the fact that Ren views himself as such, had to be made to calm down and afterwards while more openly affectionate with Nora, never actually talks about, well, any of that, to me shows his story isn't over, so much as it is just beginning.
Things are pretty chill in V5, which is unsurprising given RNJR's segment is thematically tied to the same sense of comfort & complacency that Ozpin previously had at Beacon that he can't see he's lost. Plus why wouldn't he be calm, he slew the monster that took his parents, they are in a literal safe haven, they have skilled and experienced adults provided stability and a plan of action against a dangerous foe, but one he has every reason to think they can defeat, an idea driven home by Ozpin's claim that they would be defeating Salem as he once failed to do.
Then it all starts coming apart at the seems in V6.
They lose half their team, they lose Ozpin and find out that Ozpin was lying about not only Salem being a foe they can defeat in the traditional sense, but even about so much as having a plan to stop her. He's obviously left tense, frustrated and adrift by this, barely even reacting when Jaune assaults Oscar and only seeming to calm when he's providing some kind of support to his allies or engaging in an operation.
Or in other words, the shock from the realization about Salem's immortality was never addressed. Team RWBY had a miniature arc dealing with the dangers of apathy, surrender and hopelessness, Jaune had a meeting with his martyr'ed team mates mother that helped give him closure and resolve, but Ren & Nora didn't get that,but while Nora wears her heart on her sleeve, Ren only reveals his problems when he cannot control himself anymore.
Thus, as it is we have established that Ren is a bubbling pot of emotions beneath the calm and has never really been shown addressing or dealing with this issues. We see that he sometimes struggles to keep up with his allies & will fling himself heedlessly into danger for them even when he can't fight and that on some level he views himself as having died as a child and finally that Ren usually only returns to "normal" when given structure and a goal to work towards.
With all that set up and established, I feel that Ren beginning to embrace Ironwood's hard line, heavy handed approach and (He thinks) emotionally disconnected approach. Why wouldn't he? Ironwood is providing him a goal, steps to accomplish, the sense that he is actually making progress and accomplishing something, all while presenting the image of someone who has everything together, despite much like Ren Ironwood being a mess beneath the surface.
This was further not helped by the fact he and Nora have always clearly communicated very differently, when things are calm this isn't a problem because they generally had no disruptions in their shared rhythm. But Salem, Atlas, Ren's trauma, that is throwing everything into wack and its clear they've never really had a problem like this before, and don't know how to resolve it, especially when Ren's default method of dealing with emotional problems is to shut down or hide his feelings while Nora doesn't know any other way to communicate than her own because up until now she's never needed to know Ren's.
Ren is a deeply wounded young man who I don't feel has ever tried to deal with his trauma or learn to manage his emotions in a more healthy way; he wants to protect those he loves and feel like he's actually doing something worthwhile with a life he doesn't wholly feel is his own and Atlas provided all of that to him when he was near his lowest point.
Now with all of them declared enemy's of the state, the Relic lost and Salem at their doorstep, I think Ren is going to have entered a new stage in his character arc and development.
A lot of viewers seemed to think that Ren's character arc began and ended with the Nuck Grimm, but I feel that can't be further from the truth, and I'm gonna go into why here:
So, we all know Ren, he mostly played a secondary and or supporting role in the early volumes a JNPR never got that involved in the plot. Most of what we saw was a almost supernaturally chill and slightly awkward but supportive guy who was very skilled but may have lacked the stamina of some of his allies.
Due to never getting closely tied to the plot, we didn't see much beneath the surface because he was mostly dealing with school drama, but then the Fall of Beacon happened and we see him so wounded he can't even stand, stubbornly trying to go save Pyrrha & Jaune anyway, this I feel is a pretty good sign that Ren is not nearly as chill beneath the surface.
Following that, V4 is what gives Ren and to a lesser extent Nora, real time to shine.
We learn about his home and is destruction at the hands of a Grimm.
We learn about his fathers last words of wisdom demanding he take action.
We see that his Semblance let's him hide & suppress Aura & emotions, which puts his supernatural chill into question.
Then when he encounters the Nuck, he unsurprisingly looses his cool entirely, racing in headlong against a Grimm well suited for fighting his style and almost getting himself killed. Its only Nora dragging him back to a near state of calm that stops this and he particpates in a plan that allows him the chance to effectively execute the Grimm that ruined his life.
Now one can talk about the morality of the act both in general and in regards to Grimm until they are blue in the face but I am more interested in his words. Specifically his speech about taking vengeance for the people killed, he notes his parents and then, himself. Or in other words, some part of Ren sees himself as having been effectively killed by this Grimm.
So even ignoring that while vengeance may be cathartic its still no replacement for therapy, the fact that Ren views himself as such, had to be made to calm down and afterwards while more openly affectionate with Nora, never actually talks about, well, any of that, to me shows his story isn't over, so much as it is just beginning.
Things are pretty chill in V5, which is unsurprising given RNJR's segment is thematically tied to the same sense of comfort & complacency that Ozpin previously had at Beacon that he can't see he's lost. Plus why wouldn't he be calm, he slew the monster that took his parents, they are in a literal safe haven, they have skilled and experienced adults provided stability and a plan of action against a dangerous foe, but one he has every reason to think they can defeat, an idea driven home by Ozpin's claim that they would be defeating Salem as he once failed to do.
Then it all starts coming apart at the seems in V6.
They lose half their team, they lose Ozpin and find out that Ozpin was lying about not only Salem being a foe they can defeat in the traditional sense, but even about so much as having a plan to stop her. He's obviously left tense, frustrated and adrift by this, barely even reacting when Jaune assaults Oscar and only seeming to calm when he's providing some kind of support to his allies or engaging in an operation.
Or in other words, the shock from the realization about Salem's immortality was never addressed. Team RWBY had a miniature arc dealing with the dangers of apathy, surrender and hopelessness, Jaune had a meeting with his martyr'ed team mates mother that helped give him closure and resolve, but Ren & Nora didn't get that,but while Nora wears her heart on her sleeve, Ren only reveals his problems when he cannot control himself anymore.
Thus, as it is we have established that Ren is a bubbling pot of emotions beneath the calm and has never really been shown addressing or dealing with this issues. We see that he sometimes struggles to keep up with his allies & will fling himself heedlessly into danger for them even when he can't fight and that on some level he views himself as having died as a child and finally that Ren usually only returns to "normal" when given structure and a goal to work towards.
With all that set up and established, I feel that Ren beginning to embrace Ironwood's hard line, heavy handed approach and (He thinks) emotionally disconnected approach. Why wouldn't he? Ironwood is providing him a goal, steps to accomplish, the sense that he is actually making progress and accomplishing something, all while presenting the image of someone who has everything together, despite much like Ren Ironwood being a mess beneath the surface.
This was further not helped by the fact he and Nora have always clearly communicated very differently, when things are calm this isn't a problem because they generally had no disruptions in their shared rhythm. But Salem, Atlas, Ren's trauma, that is throwing everything into wack and its clear they've never really had a problem like this before, and don't know how to resolve it, especially when Ren's default method of dealing with emotional problems is to shut down or hide his feelings while Nora doesn't know any other way to communicate than her own because up until now she's never needed to know Ren's.
Ren is a deeply wounded young man who I don't feel has ever tried to deal with his trauma or learn to manage his emotions in a more healthy way; he wants to protect those he loves and feel like he's actually doing something worthwhile with a life he doesn't wholly feel is his own and Atlas provided all of that to him when he was near his lowest point.
Now with all of them declared enemy's of the state, the Relic lost and Salem at their doorstep, I think Ren is going to have entered a new stage in his character arc and development.
RWBY is a Slow burn Series
So I was having an idle thought and I think I realized where some of the complaints about RWBY are rooted.
Most people growing up and watching shows of a similar style to RWBY are use to, I think, one of the three types of series:
Mostly episode like Sailor Moon.
Long, but with self contained arcs, like Dragon Ball.
Overarching story but of medium length, such as ATLA.
I’ll use ATLA as my go to given its often seen as an exemplar of quality and while this isn’t a comparison or negative post, highlighting how it is distinct from RWBY in structure is helpful, so let’s start.
Story structure:
ATLA has three season, this is communicated more or less off the bat within the first few episodes, this means the audience knows the series is planned, when it will end and have a general grasp of its structure. Ever season has its own self contained stories, but it broadly establishes the main goal or goals early on and follows it up with a journey.
RWBY is currently at seven volumes and we can only guess it might end at 12, that’s already more seasons than ATLA. But what’s more, while it has an overarching villain and story, we only get introduced to what seems to be the main villain at the tail end of V3. Every volume has its own self contained story, but they connect back to the overarching tale, but due to its nature as a long form narrative where mystery is part of the story we don’t have a clear end in mind.
Neither of these storytelling methods are better than the other, one provides structure and stability, the other mystique and mystery, but one is I think, much more familiar than the other and so is inherently seen as a sign of quality over a simple style of storytelling.
What this means for character Arcs:
I’ll use fan beloved Sokka as my exemplar here. Sokka’s overall character arcs are all introduced and in a sense resolved in the first season. He is chauvinistic, wants to be a warrior and defend his people and can be treated as a bit of a dummy as a joke.
Within season 1 he has respect women juice lobbed at him by Suki who helps give him more grounding as a warrior and he gets to discover his skills for strategy and invention at the Air Temple. Much of what we see after that is mostly developing or reinforcing these lessons or character traits. He respects Suki as a warrior, but is scared of losing her and needs to deal with that, he gets to show off his “Idea guy” skills and utilize them on grander scales and further refines himself as a warrior after a brief period of lost confidence.
In comparison, RWBY is a long form series, character have multiple concurrently running arcs, periods of development, backslides, growth, actualization and so on that are going to be introduced but not instantly resolved.
Weiss is perhaps a straightforward example for this as she has some short term character arcs, namely learning to reign in her pride and try to work with others, but also more long term one’s dealing with her toxic home life.
As noted, a short arc for Weiss was mostly her and Ruby needing to meet in the middle, Ruby wasn’t taking her job as leader seriously enough for Weiss, but her ego led her to want to challenge Ruby’s position over communicating her feelings and helping Ruby grow. Ruby began taking her duties more seriously at the same time as Weiss resolved to be more supportive.
But her arcs don’t end there.
Her longer form arcs are rooted in her home life. Her initial disparagement of Faunus and the White Fang has little to do with any deeply held beliefs and more the fact that Weiss was projecting her negative relationship with her father onto a scapegoat. Once she couldn’t square that with both her own lived experience at home and in knowing Blake, Weiss was able to better elucidate on her dislike for her father, however it was rooted in what he did to those outside the family, and mostly avoided her wanting to avoid him and then ‘somehow’ replace him.
But the arc doesn’t end there.
Then her team is split asunder, her safe haven is brought to ruins and the man who abused her all her life comes to collect her and Weiss lacks the support network to reject him.
Following that her arc becomes centered on defiance and a willingness to sacrifice what she knows for the dangers of the unknown if it means freedom.
But the arc doesn’t end there.
Because then she was back in Atlas and while able to stand up to her father with her found family at her side Weiss still lacked a means of overcoming Jac, rejecting and escaping him is different to defeating him.
Thanks to aid from her mother she does ultamitely remove Jac as she had long since wanted, effectively defeating him....
But the arc doesn’t end there.
Because Jac’s influence on her, on the family still lingers. He nearly destroyed Willow’s spirit, he has tried to forge Whitley into a clone of himself and left Winter so desperate to escape she latched onto a dictator because he provided her safe haven.
Weiss has had to grapple with a lot, sliding back and forth, choosing and leaving different avenues of development just to get this far, but the story and her arc ae by no means ‘done’ with his arrest, they merely entered a new stage.
Unsurprisingly, this type of storytelling and character arcs is radically different to that seen in ATLA.
One communicates most of its elements fairly early and after getting over the initial hurdle continues t steadily develop them at a steady pace.
RWBY on the other hands shifts and changes its focus and pacing based on the characters locations, place in the story, their personal head space and reveals new stages to these character arcs the longer it goes on.
Conclusion
Neither method is bad, both are well suited to the kind of stories they are tied to, but they are very distinct and I think that is where at least some confusion on how RWBY handles its story and character elements comes from.
So I was having an idle thought and I think I realized where some of the complaints about RWBY are rooted.
Most people growing up and watching shows of a similar style to RWBY are use to, I think, one of the three types of series:
Mostly episode like Sailor Moon.
Long, but with self contained arcs, like Dragon Ball.
Overarching story but of medium length, such as ATLA.
I’ll use ATLA as my go to given its often seen as an exemplar of quality and while this isn’t a comparison or negative post, highlighting how it is distinct from RWBY in structure is helpful, so let’s start.
Story structure:
ATLA has three season, this is communicated more or less off the bat within the first few episodes, this means the audience knows the series is planned, when it will end and have a general grasp of its structure. Ever season has its own self contained stories, but it broadly establishes the main goal or goals early on and follows it up with a journey.
RWBY is currently at seven volumes and we can only guess it might end at 12, that’s already more seasons than ATLA. But what’s more, while it has an overarching villain and story, we only get introduced to what seems to be the main villain at the tail end of V3. Every volume has its own self contained story, but they connect back to the overarching tale, but due to its nature as a long form narrative where mystery is part of the story we don’t have a clear end in mind.
Neither of these storytelling methods are better than the other, one provides structure and stability, the other mystique and mystery, but one is I think, much more familiar than the other and so is inherently seen as a sign of quality over a simple style of storytelling.
What this means for character Arcs:
I’ll use fan beloved Sokka as my exemplar here. Sokka’s overall character arcs are all introduced and in a sense resolved in the first season. He is chauvinistic, wants to be a warrior and defend his people and can be treated as a bit of a dummy as a joke.
Within season 1 he has respect women juice lobbed at him by Suki who helps give him more grounding as a warrior and he gets to discover his skills for strategy and invention at the Air Temple. Much of what we see after that is mostly developing or reinforcing these lessons or character traits. He respects Suki as a warrior, but is scared of losing her and needs to deal with that, he gets to show off his “Idea guy” skills and utilize them on grander scales and further refines himself as a warrior after a brief period of lost confidence.
In comparison, RWBY is a long form series, character have multiple concurrently running arcs, periods of development, backslides, growth, actualization and so on that are going to be introduced but not instantly resolved.
Weiss is perhaps a straightforward example for this as she has some short term character arcs, namely learning to reign in her pride and try to work with others, but also more long term one’s dealing with her toxic home life.
As noted, a short arc for Weiss was mostly her and Ruby needing to meet in the middle, Ruby wasn’t taking her job as leader seriously enough for Weiss, but her ego led her to want to challenge Ruby’s position over communicating her feelings and helping Ruby grow. Ruby began taking her duties more seriously at the same time as Weiss resolved to be more supportive.
But her arcs don’t end there.
Her longer form arcs are rooted in her home life. Her initial disparagement of Faunus and the White Fang has little to do with any deeply held beliefs and more the fact that Weiss was projecting her negative relationship with her father onto a scapegoat. Once she couldn’t square that with both her own lived experience at home and in knowing Blake, Weiss was able to better elucidate on her dislike for her father, however it was rooted in what he did to those outside the family, and mostly avoided her wanting to avoid him and then ‘somehow’ replace him.
But the arc doesn’t end there.
Then her team is split asunder, her safe haven is brought to ruins and the man who abused her all her life comes to collect her and Weiss lacks the support network to reject him.
Following that her arc becomes centered on defiance and a willingness to sacrifice what she knows for the dangers of the unknown if it means freedom.
But the arc doesn’t end there.
Because then she was back in Atlas and while able to stand up to her father with her found family at her side Weiss still lacked a means of overcoming Jac, rejecting and escaping him is different to defeating him.
Thanks to aid from her mother she does ultamitely remove Jac as she had long since wanted, effectively defeating him....
But the arc doesn’t end there.
Because Jac’s influence on her, on the family still lingers. He nearly destroyed Willow’s spirit, he has tried to forge Whitley into a clone of himself and left Winter so desperate to escape she latched onto a dictator because he provided her safe haven.
Weiss has had to grapple with a lot, sliding back and forth, choosing and leaving different avenues of development just to get this far, but the story and her arc ae by no means ‘done’ with his arrest, they merely entered a new stage.
Unsurprisingly, this type of storytelling and character arcs is radically different to that seen in ATLA.
One communicates most of its elements fairly early and after getting over the initial hurdle continues t steadily develop them at a steady pace.
RWBY on the other hands shifts and changes its focus and pacing based on the characters locations, place in the story, their personal head space and reveals new stages to these character arcs the longer it goes on.
Conclusion
Neither method is bad, both are well suited to the kind of stories they are tied to, but they are very distinct and I think that is where at least some confusion on how RWBY handles its story and character elements comes from.
Weiss' next arc, re-connecting with her little brother.
Or possibly even putting her entire family (minus Jac) into a better state.
Jac is arrested, and now all that's left is dealing with Salem and Ironwood. Once those matters are handled then Willow, Winter, and Whitley can finally, FINALLY begin to heal and start being a family again.
I wonder what Klein is up to right now anyway.
Or possibly even putting her entire family (minus Jac) into a better state.
Jac is arrested, and now all that's left is dealing with Salem and Ironwood. Once those matters are handled then Willow, Winter, and Whitley can finally, FINALLY begin to heal and start being a family again.
I wonder what Klein is up to right now anyway.
