The Generic Singular They

Shadell

New member
Pronouns
she/her
I doubt I'm being particularly bold or controversial here in stating that I like the singular they and find little grammatically with it. It was widely used historically until about the 18th century, and it's a more inclusive framing than the generic "he," "she,' or "he or she"

That said, I do think it's interesting to examine how the topic's framing has changed over time, as it's slowly shifted toward inclusion, and how ceding ground on this somewhat serves as a metaphor for broader trends toward acceptance of gender diversity.

Fairly recently, many style manuals (e.g., the APA, and Chicago Style) have accepted that A: people have always used the singular they in casual language, so yeah, that's acceptable and B: Some people prefer gender-neutral pronouns and they works for those people.

What is interesting, I think, is the APA's treatment in particular in regards to a non-specified gender. In general, most style guides suggest that he or she is better alternative. similar sentiments can be seen in op-eds and the like. While fully supporting the singular they in the special context of a person who prefers it as their own pronouns, these also reject it in the generic sense in favor of "he," "she" or "he or she." No one, it seems, considers, "he, she or they" as a valid option, even though their own positions accept that "they" is often the correct address for specific people. A lot of these changes are quite recent. AFAIK, the Chicago manual of style only acknowledged they's legitimacy at all in 2017.

This is fairly interesting. Most studies I've run with large samples have found at least a few individuals who didn't identify as male or female when asked. Some might alternate or swap pronouns, but some probably like they. If we were to refer to the sample (e.g., describing the specific process every subject went through in an online experiment), using "he or she" would be acceptable, but also wrong even in the logic style guides accept, while "they" would be more inclusive and accurate, but remains unacceptable. The Chicago Manual is a bit better, suggesting that it's not okay, but editors should just let people use it if they really care that much.

This is, I think, pretty clear as a metaphor of how we treat gender identity, even in comparatively accepting spaces. We accept that an individual might not be a he or she.

And yet, it's common to see people who believe it is wrong to assume that a generic individual might not be a he or she. Among those who accept they or Zie or Xe as a valid means of address, many couch this in the language of following, rather than guiding norms if they aren't getting pointlessly upset about how much it pains their ears to see commonly used grammar that disturbs their fragile sensibilities. "It is becoming more acceptable, but isn't yet, so don't do this in formal writing," seems to be a common logic, but one that's at odds with the contradiction intrinsic to allowing it in specific cases, but rejecting it in the abstract.

How well does the metaphor work?
Does they, and its assault on traditional values of subject verb relations offend your delicate sensibilities?

Is this kind of thing so far down the list of priorities in terms of equality or so stereotypically 'first year student in undergrad being performatively woke' that it's not really worth arguing, or a valid point of discussion as a cue for broader questions of representation? Should we engage with these kind of issues that are fairly trivial next to things like healthcare, housing, arrest rates, violence directed at non-cis people (particularly of color), etc?
 

Axiomatic

New member
Shadell said:
I doubt I'm being particularly bold or controversial here in stating that I like the singular they and find little grammatically with it. It was widely used historically until about the 18th century, and it's a more inclusive framing than the generic "he," "she,' or "he or she"

That said, I do think it's interesting to examine how the topic's framing has changed over time, as it's slowly shifted toward inclusion, and how ceding ground on this somewhat serves as a metaphor for broader trends toward acceptance of gender diversity.

Fairly recently, many style manuals (e.g., the APA, and Chicago Style) have accepted that A: people have always used the singular they in casual language, so yeah, that's acceptable and B: Some people prefer gender-neutral pronouns and they works for those people.

What is interesting, I think, is the APA's treatment in particular in regards to a non-specified gender. In general, most style guides suggest that he or she is better alternative. similar sentiments can be seen in op-eds and the like. While fully supporting the singular they in the special context of a person who prefers it as their own pronouns, these also reject it in the generic sense in favor of "he," "she" or "he or she." No one, it seems, considers, "he, she or they" as a valid option, even though their own positions accept that "they" is often the correct address for specific people. A lot of these changes are quite recent. AFAIK, the Chicago manual of style only acknowledged they's legitimacy at all in 2017.

This is fairly interesting. Most studies I've run with large samples have found at least a few individuals who didn't identify as male or female when asked. Some might alternate or swap pronouns, but some probably like they. If we were to refer to the sample (e.g., describing the specific process every subject went through in an online experiment), using "he or she" would be acceptable, but also wrong even in the logic style guides accept, while "they" would be more inclusive and accurate, but remains unacceptable. The Chicago Manual is a bit better, suggesting that it's not okay, but editors should just let people use it if they really care that much.

This is, I think, pretty clear as a metaphor of how we treat gender identity, even in comparatively accepting spaces. We accept that an individual might not be a he or she.

And yet, it's common to see people who believe it is wrong to assume that a generic individual might not be a he or she. Among those who accept they or Zie or Xe as a valid means of address, many couch this in the language of following, rather than guiding norms if they aren't getting pointlessly upset about how much it pains their ears to see commonly used grammar that disturbs their fragile sensibilities. "It is becoming more acceptable, but isn't yet, so don't do this in formal writing," seems to be a common logic, but one that's at odds with the contradiction intrinsic to allowing it in specific cases, but rejecting it in the abstract.

How well does the metaphor work?
Does they, and its assault on traditional values of subject verb relations offend your delicate sensibilities?

Is this kind of thing so far down the list of priorities in terms of equality or so stereotypically 'first year student in undergrad being performatively woke' that it's not really worth arguing, or a valid point of discussion as a cue for broader questions of representation? Should we engage with these kind of issues that are fairly trivial next to things like healthcare, housing, arrest rates, violence directed at non-cis people (particularly of color), etc?

I figure that if the singular They is good enough for Chaucer, it's good enough for me.

There's exactly one situation where I think the singular they is a bad idea, and switching to more traditional gendered pronouns is better, and that's when describing the interaction between two hypothetical people whose genders aren't so much unknown as we're simply free to imagine them to be whatever we want them to be.

As a concrete example, tabletop roleplaying books. They will often talk about "the player" and "the Game Master" and sometimes these two people do things on their own, but sometimes the Game Master has to talk to her player, and sometimes the player has to ask his Game Master to describe the ten by ten foot room he finds himself in. In this situation, it's better to simply arbitrarily decide that the GM is female and the player is male, because that way, later on in the text we can simply talk about them with the short, space-saving pronouns of "she" for the GM and "he" for the player, instead of forcing the reader to slog through endless paragraphs of "The player did this. Then the player made a second decision. The Player was planning to do the other thing too, but the player ran out of Doing Stuff points for that".

Of course, games by shitlords like Cthulhutech do this badly by making everyone male To Trigger The Libs, which loses them the benefit I just described.

After all, if you declare early on that the GM will be referred to by feminine pronouns and the player will be using masculine ones, then just a pronoun popping up is an instant hint about whether this rule or example of play is intended for players or GMs!
 
Pronouns
he/him/his
*is fine with being on the receiving end of a they*


EDIT:
I figure that if the singular They is good enough for Chaucer, it's good enough for me.
Well, to be fair, as I understand it, pronouns were in flux in Chaucer's time.

IIRC - correct me if I'm wrong here - Old English has different pronouns for at least three (possibly all four) of "he/she/they/it", but they were something along the lines of "he/heo/hi". By Chaucer's time, sound changes had effectively merged all or most of them into "he", which was... somewhat inconvenient.
So, sometime shortly before Chaucer, the word "they" was borrowed from Old Norse, and the words "she" and "it" were created from... forgot where. The new pronouns weren't quite established yet, so Chaucer tends to use all of them in a mix.
(My favorite example line: Canterbury Tales prologue line 11, "So priketh hem Nature in hir corages". The last word is now spelled "courage", the second word is now spelled "pricks". The rest is recognizable except for the pronouns.)
 
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